STAX Founders on Building a Cult Brand in Activewear

Boa host0:00
Thank you all so much for being here. And today I have the pleasure of interviewing and having a chat with two good friends of mine. Now, we actually met first on the podcast, on my podcast.

Matilda0:11
Yeah.

Boa host0:11
And we realised we've got a bunch of mutual friends and best friends, actually. And so I've gotten to know Don and Matilda quite well now. And Till.

Matilda0:22
Till. Oh, okay. Till.

Boa host0:24
They're not besties.

Matilda0:27
No, at least you didn't go till.

Boa host0:28
I remember that because I know you don't like chili.

Matilda0:29
I don't like chili.

Boa host0:30
You've told me that. Case for today, we'll keep it formal.

Matilda0:34
Chill.

Boa host0:36
And I mean, I'm sure you all know their brand. I'm fairly certain everyone in Australia knows their brand. And I guess the point of today is to figure out how they actually did that, not just build that brand and that cult following, but the business storey behind it. And also like things like, you know, they release these lines and then they have them sold out. You know, is that luck or is that genius? Yeah.

Audience member1:04
Or strategy.

Boa host1:05
It's probably a smarter word than genius. And so can we give them a round of applause, please?

Audience member1:11
Thank you.

Boa host1:14
Now, I want to start— sorry, also, there will be open discussion, Q&A. So please write down your questions. Like, if you think of something and you want to write down, you haven't got a piece of paper, put it on your phone. I'll know you're not texting. But I want to start the conversation at the beginning. I guess what was the lightbulb moment that, that triggered you to say, hey, I should get in to one of the most saturated markets there is, activewear?

Don1:45
Yeah, naivety. Look, I, I just got to apologize. I got a black eye and I know people are going to look at me differently. He pissed me off in the back, so I slapped him.

Matilda1:53
They were best friends. Yeah.

Don1:55
So Tilda's conspiring and they want to put me in a patch tonight. So I—

Matilda1:58
It's on just on my side.

Don2:01
I literally slipped and fell. It's one of those true awkward stories, so I just want to get that out of the way. Um, the, the other answer I had was, um, I had a disagreement with Matilda and she won. But, uh, I, I think, I think the answer to the question is like, it's, it's a culmination of just time. Like, I think when I started the brand, like, I was like, I was flirting with like eBay and I was working at Foot Locker and I did an internship at Nike and I didn't have like this idea where it's like we're going to take over the world and we're going to enter this, this market. It's just I love fashion. I like the idea of making things and selling things and creating things. So, um, I just started with the product and just worked it. It wasn't like a decision of like, we're going to enter this crazy market, write out a business plan, you know, draw this whole idea. Um, it just, you know, start with the product and just worked it.

Boa host2:48
I think that's an important lesson though, because like it was very similar to with me and Cub. And I think sometimes it's not about knowing the perfect model or the perfect strategy at the start. It's just about starting and doing the thing that you're actually passionate passionate about.

Don3:03
Well, I think so. The biggest mistake, um, mistake— I think, I think one of the, the scariest things I think for people is that, uh, people talk themselves out of doing good ideas. You know, you have an idea and then you build up the business plan, you realise there's no money, there's too much, and there's never money. There's never— how am I going to find money to start the idea?

Boa host3:20
Like, it's just—

Matilda3:21
stop.

Don3:22
You miraculously figure out the one.

Matilda3:23
I also think if you know too much, then it's just too scary anyway. Like, if we knew— and we've been doing this for 10 years now— if we knew everything that we had to go through— like, I mean, I started dating John like 9 years And if I knew that this was going to happen, I'd have to go through all this. I don't know if I would have said yes to the first day because like there is so much, you know, there's so much involved in running a brand and a business. And if you know it all right at the very start, I don't, I don't know. I think it's better just to like, ignorance is bliss, right?

Boa host3:50
Like, just give it a go. I completely agree.

Don3:53
I think true entrepreneurs, there's delusion. Like, I seriously mean it. I think like, you know, the best innovators in the world, they live in this oblivion where it's like anything is possible. Any idea is crazy. And you tell your team like the craziest thing is like, seeing my team's face on a Monday when I'm having— when I'm having a crazy day on the weekend, I'm like, guys, on Monday, this is what we're going to do. And I was like— and then I can see people are messaging Tills like, is he fucking serious? But I think that that delusion is actually quite an important part.

Boa host4:20
I actually read a quote not too long ago, which is fairly insulting to all of us here today, but it was that the best entrepreneurs are not smart enough to realise how risky or difficult it is.

Matilda4:32
Yeah, I think that's fair. And I can cheque out—

Don4:36
cheque out Yeah, if we were smart, we would have gotten a job, like work for someone else and let them take all of this.

Boa host4:42
That being said, that being said, it is chaos and it is very stressful. And there are many times of thinking like, is this ever going to work or is this ever going to— or am I ever going to be at the point where I feel I want to be or successful? But I mean, and I can speak for myself, I'd love to hear you guys, is it's also the best thing I ever did. And I was like, if I didn't do that, like, what would I be doing?

Matilda5:07
You know? Yeah.

Boa host5:09
Like, are you grateful? Are you grateful for it?

Don5:13
But I think that's the delusion. So I specifically, it's crazy because we're, you know, I started the journey in 2012 and we just celebrated our 10th year as well. Congratulations to you for what you guys have done. And, you know, the brand really kicked off in 2015 as its first like online business. I launched, it was stacksliving.com because I didn't really understand domains and shit. Eventually got stacks.com and blah, blah, blah. And Uh, so 10 years into it, I don't know if you remember, in October last year we were sitting in the Gold Coast and we were just going through a lot. And, um, you know, I think I was actually literally in the, in the, in the, um, in that hotel room crying, literally crying. Cause I'm like, fuck, it's just, this is too much going on. It's crazy. So I think like those, those reflection moments, it's like, it's like this whirlwind of just cry, jump up, happy, excitement, want to jump off the building, want to build the building and jump off it again. Like, That's, that's the journey. Like, that's the truth.

Matilda6:07
But I think it's like an addiction as well, because like, you just genuinely, like, you love it. You can have like a really, like a really shitty day. And then the next day you do like this incredible campaign. You're like, oh my God, I love my job. Like, Stacks is so cool. I love it. I love it. Then the next day you're like, oh my God, this is hell. This is so hard. I wish I could palm this off to my boss to fix for me, blah, blah, blah. And then something else happens. You're like, oh my God, this is the best job in the world. And it is like a, it's like an adrenaline addiction. Yeah.

Boa host6:31
Yeah.

Don6:31
But that's the truth. And you like, you speak to any business owner. Or any entrepreneur, and that's the journey. That's the— that's what you wake up for.

Boa host6:37
But what's the best mindset and approach to navigate that emotional roller coaster, and particularly to navigate the negative thoughts that come in your head, which I'm sure, like, I mean, I get them. I'm sure everybody gets them.

Don6:51
Uh, realising that this fleeting moment where we're sitting on a stage for everyone is just short-term, and no one's going to give a fuck about us after we leave. Like, and that's the truth, is like, no one cares. Like, no one cares about your failures. No one cares about the stores you have to close.

Matilda7:06
No cares about the articles, you know, like people don't care as much about you as much as you think they do.

Don7:12
You want them to.

Matilda7:13
Yeah. Yeah.

Don7:15
You want people to love your ideas and your genius and your everything. But like, we're going to leave it tonight and go back to our own lives and I'll get it.

Matilda7:21
And I also think like when, when I'm going through, when we're going through like hard times, I think about like all the stuff that I would have considered hard like 8 years ago, right? And I'm like, like, now I can handle this. If you put me in a situation that I was in, that Don was in 8 years ago, that's easy. I wouldn't even think twice about solving that problem. So it's a hard mindset and a hard mental shift sometimes, and especially when you're going through it. But I always remind myself that, like, we have been through things, and that's made us be able to get to a level where now we have to solve these even bigger things. I mean, that kind of sounds exhausting.

Boa host7:53
Never is going to be forever.

Matilda7:54
Yeah, yeah. But, like, we're so much better at doing that stuff now, and you can put us with the challenge that we had 8 years ago, it's not even a challenge anymore.

Don8:02
It's like, it's like toxic relationship, you know. It's like you, you chase those—

Matilda8:08
you really don't like business.

Don8:12
But it's like you chase that, but that's the high you chase because like you'll have a collection that kills and does well and it's like, well, what's next? Yeah, well, how do you keep going? And that's— but that's the drive, that's the exciting thing. And it's like you chase that uncomfortableness and you get through it and you like, you pat yourself on your back and it's, and it's amazing. And you look at how hard it was to get there and you chase the next goal and you look at that and it's like, oh, it's actually easier. Um, when you, when you have to redo that piece, like, because that's the experience, that's the learning phase of it.

Boa host8:38
I do love, um, till what you said as well regarding, um, yeah, or maybe Tom, was it you? But regarding you, people don't care. Like, you put so much weight on things, like, I need the perfect launcher, I need the perfect this, or if this happens it's all over. But the reality is you're the only one that's going to think about it, remember it. So you may as well just do it and get it done. Because, you know, at the end of the day, it's not mattering either way, but it will matter for you in a positive because even if it doesn't work, you'll learn, and if it does work, you've moved forward. So, um, now is there a time, or, or can you remember a time, particularly at the beginning or even recently, where you were like, oh, I can't do this anymore, like I might actually give up?

Don9:20
What's the time? Um, uh, I don't think giving up is, um, in our nature. I think, I think that's the— I think that's probably the, the part where it's a bit different. Like I don't, my mindset is not give up or failure. I always think that like, that's that naivety we speak about in entrepreneurship and running businesses that you have to have a switch that you turn off where it's like, you can't fail. Sure, you might lose money and the first business doesn't work, but that's not failure. And you sort of, you just don't focus on that side. I just don't like the whole giving up thing is like every day you're like, man, this is just so hard. Let's keep going.

Matilda9:55
Yeah. Even when things are going tough, like we'll have options, but giving up, like like we could do this, this, or this. How do we get out of this problem situation? But like giving up is never really on there.

Boa host10:04
Like it's not an option.

Matilda10:06
It's not.

Boa host10:06
And if you view it as not an option, then you have to find a path.

Matilda10:10
And we don't even think about it. Well, we know we're not going to.

Don10:12
So what's like— I mean, I don't know if you guys can connect the idea, but like, you know, they say that what's the darkness is the absence of light. So the idea is like failure doesn't really exist. It's just like the absence of winning at that one thing at the time, because the constant is that Things aren't supposed to work out, but they only work out when you try.

Boa host10:33
And what would you say is the point in the business when you first realized, oh, okay, this is working, you know? And, and what did you do that got you to that point?

Don10:42
I think it's the, the small things along the journey. So I think we had little goals we set, and I think the first one before I quit my job was that we'd have to make a consistent $500 a day.

Matilda10:51
Yeah, before you could quit. Yes.

Don10:53
And, and at that stage, I was doing this, you know, for 4, for 4 years before that, and I was screen printing hoodies, and I Literally, you know, there's selling in the back of your car. I was at markets. I went to, you know, uni days at university. It was so embarrassing, no one even cared. Um, you know, I went to gyms with a little IKEA rack and stood there. I was like, hey, you want to buy my leggings? Like, this creepy guy standing and asking all the hot girls, like, hey, you'd look great in these. Um, uh, it worked. Uh, I think it's a culmination of just little, little successes. So we, we had moments where it's like, you First goal, got to have a consistent $500 today because you got to pay the rent. And we, and we did that. And then, you know, the next goal, I think before Till could quit her job, we'd have to do $5K a day or something.

Matilda11:35
Yeah, I got an extra zero. Yeah.

Audience member11:36
Yeah.

Don11:38
Well, someone had to pay the rent if shit didn't work out. So I think, I don't think it's like that one. It's just, it's growth.

Boa host11:44
But I think the, I think the lesson there is that you didn't aim for $1 million. You aimed for $500,000. And if you take, if you break it up and you take baby steps along the journey, it makes the journey a lot, a lot easier. It makes you feel like you're succeeding.

Matilda11:57
Yes. Having like the little checkpoints along the way. Yeah.

Don12:00
And having realistic goals. Like, what can I do today? Like if someone's selling a product, you can, you can sell $200 worth of product today. I think what I'm happy to sit with anyone and show them, like you can find an old Yellow Pages and start going and you can, you can find a way to make $200 a day.

Boa host12:17
Now I mentioned it before that your launches sell out very fast and I know from last time we spoke, that sometimes it's set up before it even launches. And what is the, I guess, what lessons can you share with everybody here about how to make a launch of any product or service successful?

Don12:36
It's really tough these days. You know, I think, I think when you were speaking of the saturation, the market of active brands.

Boa host12:41
Anything more inspiring?

Don12:42
No.

Boa host12:44
Truth is what we want.

Don12:45
No, I, um, no, I like to share it transparently. You jump on and you seem like 20-year-olds on TikTok outselling us on like women's crop tops and leggings. So you, so, so the, um, the, the idea there is, is that like, um, I just lost my train of thought.

Boa host13:04
Um, so it is saturated and there's like literally people on TikTok are selling bulk because they make a post that gets heaps of traction. And what are you doing that is making your launches successful?

Don13:18
Yeah, I think it's the same idea. Like, you know, we, we're trying to tap into what's relevant because when we first was doing it, we were killing on Instagram and Instagram was its thing. And then, you know, TikTok came in and then Meta became relevant. So, you know, we're trying to stay in front of like those relevant communities that sort of love the product.

Matilda13:36
I think our community as well, it's like we have such a strong community and that's something we're so proud of. I think taking people behind the whole like design process behind the scenes, showing everyone what's coming, listening to the community, taking their like positive positive and negative feedback on board. Like, I think involving the community is such a key part as well.

Boa host13:55
Yeah, and you do have that cult following. So I guess, how did you start building that community? How did you actually get it going?

Matilda14:01
It's funny because even when Don was selling like tights out of the back of his car, he had like a community in Perth. Like, he's always— I remember when I first met him, I was like, how do all these people like know what Stacks— like, I thought, bless Stacks, like, bless you, sell your activewear. I'm— my background's recruitment. I'll be the sugar mama and I'll pay the bills and you can sell your tights. And then suddenly I realised that like everyone knew about Stacks. Like we are from different— we're from Perth, we're from different sides of the river. And like that's quite a big deal in Perth. And everyone his side knew about Stacks. Like he already like had that community and it's because he had built those communities like in the gym or his friendship groups and people wanted to be involved. And I think that's it. It was always about community, right from before Don, I think, even realised what he was doing. Because it is something that I noticed originally. I was like, how does everyone— why is everyone obsessed with him in these times? Like, I don't get it.

Don14:52
Yeah, but then Till came in and then she built an Instagram following and just like took over the space. Okay. So like, because we had— we actually had a female voice behind the product now because I, I was designing, I was creating. But when, when Till came in, she actually, you know, took that initial concept and built and built the community around it. We serve people, we create for people, and that's just, that's just great. But it's a lot of hard work.

Boa host15:16
And what do you do like that? What do you do to connect your community or to stay in contact with them? And how do you leverage them to then sell or launch new products?

Matilda15:26
So we have a really engaged Facebook VIP group and they, it's, they're fantastic in there. They will share their opinions all the time about everything and anything, good and bad, and And sometimes, sometimes you don't want to hear— you never really want to hear the bad stuff. But that's again, like something that we've had to learn is that you do want to hear it and take it on. Like, well, I just listen to the good.

Don15:48
That was a mindset shift for us as well, because like when people are delivering negative feedback, like that's the biggest blessing someone can give you. Someone taught me that. It's like if someone's, if someone's giving you criticism or bad feedback, like they actually want you to be better.

Matilda16:01
Even, you know, sometimes it might be harsh, but yeah, because you know how there's that saying, it's like you should never take someone's opinion like unless you want to be in their shoes or whatever. Like, I think so to some extent, but like, if it's a customer, if it's someone providing feedback on the service or product that you're giving, like, you should listen because they might have a really great point. And how do we stay connected? We genuinely are interested in what they have to say and what they're doing and taking them along. Like, we're so grateful. We understand that we wouldn't be here without them.

Don16:28
I think it's similar to what you guys have built. Like, it's, you know, it's a club. It's a, it's a group of people that are moving in the same direction. You look at all the greatest brands in the world do the same thing, like the Nikes, Adidas, Lulus, like Everything that they create is like, you know, creating this idea of brand and what you stand for and trying to create something that's attractive for people to want to belong to.

Matilda16:46
Yeah.

Boa host16:47
And when someone says something bad about Cub, I look at the team and I go, go get it.

Matilda16:51
That's how that means.

Boa host16:54
They're out. That's how I'm joking. No, I think that's a fantastic, fantastic point. I want to talk to you about marketing and what's been the most success, most successful marketing hack or activation that you've done that has resulted in— it might be the biggest sales or it might be the biggest brand recognition.

Don17:14
I think we sort of go through these, these, these waves and we were just, we launched Limoncello a week ago. So I was going to say, you can see jumping. We sort of went through this phase this year where we sort of looking at like, all right, traditionally, like we're an e-commerce brand. That's our, that's our thing. That's what we know. You know, the brick and mortar thing, like, you know, tried that. Look, what we know is, is online and e-commerce. And we know that, you know, there's a formula you can build out, you know, to get people to the website. But like, You know, building this idea where like you entertain and create something for attention and being disruptive is key. So this whole particular year we tried to play it safe and do like, you know, UGC-based stuff and more like strategic-based stuff because, you know, all the ebooks are saying, you know, conversion rates and traffic and blah, blah, blah. So we got that piece, but then we sort of backstepped on the cool campaigns that we shoot and the creative messaging that we build and like the storytelling. And then we did that for this particular collection. It's been crazy. So it sort of reminded us that, you know, in summary, when you tell a storey and when you create something that attracts people's attention, that usually gets that excitement. And then obviously when the product is good, people might want to shop.

Boa host18:23
And so with that in mind, so telling the storey is what gets people to back something. I guess, what, like, can you give the example of what the storey was for Limoncello? Like, how did you, like, what was it that you felt that people bought into?

Matilda18:36
So we created an incredible campaign where like we did like a European summer kind of campaign. I literally got one of my followers' nans to come and star in the shoot. Like, I just messaged on Instagram, I was like, hey, can I borrow someone's nan?

Boa host18:50
We need it. We made that a community thing.

Matilda18:52
Yeah, that's part of the community. So we get community involved and we're working with Sammy Robinson, who's an incredible influencer, also should be a supermodel. It's wild. So we had her, but we didn't announce who it was. So there was like that excitement. And then we created this incredible campaign to go alongside an incredible collection. People were so excited to view the campaign, see who the face of it was, for the collection. It was just like everything kind of worked out really nicely. Everything was exciting.

Boa host19:18
Oh, what's going to happen?

Matilda19:19
Don shot the campaign, which is exactly what we used to do, like when we just started.

Boa host19:23
And did you show footage of Don shooting the campaign? So like you're really showing the making of how the decisions happened and the behind the scenes.

Matilda19:30
And it's funny because I think when you have so much going on, which sometimes we do, it's really hard to put yourself in that position where you want to shoot the campaign, you want to show the BTS, you want to be face to camera, you want to take people along the journey. But this is like a prime example of it is so important to do that. I think if you just like come out with something and expect people to buy it because you told them to, like, they need to have some sort of emotional connection.

Boa host19:51
Yeah. And I guess by showing them the lead up to the thing, they're buying in before it's there to buy anyway. You know, they're being entertained, like you said, Dom. Now everyone's hunting for rapid growth. Everyone wants that big that boost in sales and that viral product. But when it does happen, what disasters should people look out for?

Audience member20:14
Oh, I love that.

Matilda20:16
No, I gave that answer.

Don20:19
I mean, so we, it's an interesting one because we started the brand in 2015, really kicked off. And there was this big COVID boom and there's a big dot-com boom. It's this crazy Venn diagram where all these worlds collide and you have this thing where e-commerce brands just killed in that period. Um, and, uh, in particular, we dropped our second big collection. That's when people just started getting to know us. It was called Premium Seamless version 2. We created this, um, fabrication people loved. Anyway, uh, everything we did at the time was selling on pre-sale, and, um, it was a setting on Shopify that I forgot to turn off. And we dropped this collection. It's a long story, but I'm trying to give you the short version. We dropped this collection, and, uh, this particular one, um, oversold by the something like $800,000 worth of stock, which we didn't have.

Boa host21:12
It's a problem.

Don21:12
Well, yeah, yeah, that was, that was a, that was a big, that was a big problem. Um, we figured it out. I'm very good at customer service. We didn't, we didn't have, um, any customer service plans. It was like pure email. That was the first time we had to hire staff as well. Um, but to give, to give more of like a, you know, broader answer to the question as well, I think the, the one thing that I'm studying and I'm learning through, you know, people that are way more successful and experienced than us is that, you know, that fast growth that everyone chases is exceptionally dangerous.

Matilda21:42
Yeah.

Don21:42
Because it absolutely can, it can fuck the business fundamentally.

Boa host21:45
Totally.

Don21:46
Because you just, you just like, and when you're, when you're like, you know, the, the first half of what, you know, the, the mentality I have is just like, you go, you go, you go. And like, you just, you're just, you're running. Um, and you don't have someone pulling you back and you slow, slow down and build like the back end of the business. That rocket ship will crash. Yeah. And that's the—

Matilda22:03
and you get so like everyone, it's all happening. You're winning, you're winning. Like there's no— there's like you're unstoppable. Yeah. Kind of thing.

Boa host22:10
You can't see the danger coming.

Audience member22:11
Yeah.

Matilda22:11
Yeah. Big danger.

Audience member22:12
And that's—

Don22:13
it's funny because like, you know, I think we're all young, young here, but you sort of sit with these like 60-year-olds and 70-year-olds, you know, mentors or entrepreneurs that have done it all. And you start talking about this or some of the issues you might face and they start laughing at you. Because it's actually quite a common thing where it's like, you know, rapid growth without, uh, strategy and restraints is actually quite dangerous. And all of us in this young era think that, you know, top-line revenue is amazing and it's exciting. You read the articles, you know, like the Gaslight. So I think, um, I think that's a disaster. I think like when you have disciplines and you sort of go through those experiences, you sit back and learn and you have a good CFO.

Matilda22:49
Yeah, you learn from other people, like in this community as well, like learning from other people and actually like talking about what you're going through and being open to other people and their ideas, I think, is like, can definitely help in those situations.

Boa host23:01
And I mean, I say it all the time, but I read a quote the other day from Alex Hormozi who said that business is a game of survival, not of speed. And that's always how I view it. And, and I mean, even with your guys' brand, I mean, everybody knows it now, but it's been 10 years.

Audience member23:20
Yeah.

Boa host23:21
You know, so like it was the consistent effort and consistent punishment over a long period of time that ended up consistent learning and upskilling and growing and adding your team. And it was just consistent focus on that one project over a 10-year period to get it where it is today. And 10 years is a long time.

Don23:40
I like to share that proverb or that parable about Kina the Bamboo. You know how it takes, I think, 8 years to grow underground before you see the first sprout. And that's the excitement. It's like, you know, everyone that's in business and everyone that has an idea, like when you incubate and you just let it, let it build and just take, take this really back step in the shadows and you just get busy and you just keep working at it. And then when the time is right, when it's your time like that, when that sprout happens, you've got to be ready. And I think that slow, long, steady play and that's how we approach everything now.

Boa host24:12
Yeah, totally. And you mentioned just before the importance of a team and like learning from having the right people around you to learn from. And can you give us a kind of an understanding of your team, how big it is, how, how broad it is? Like, are they all across Australia? And then I want to ask more about how you— how long it took you to find the right people. But yeah, what's the scale of your team at the moment?

Don24:37
Uh, it's got about a, um, I think around 70 or 80 people in the group now. So I think, uh, we've got 20 in the office, 10 in the warehouse, uh, The rest are probably retail and offshore.

Boa host24:53
And how long did it take you to find your core team? Yeah, you know, the ones that are moving the needle for you.

Matilda24:59
My background's recruitment. Can I hire internally? Absolutely not. Like, it is like, it's so, it's so hard to hire for your own.

Boa host25:05
Like, you think it is.

Matilda25:06
I would be amazing at hiring because, like, of my background.

Boa host25:10
It was your job.

Matilda25:11
Yeah, it was my job, but we used to treat interviews like we auditioned, like it was a PR pitch for us. Like we wanted people to come in and we wanted them to leave loving us even more. Like, like loving the job, loving staff, loving John and I, like being big fans. That's, that's not what the job is. Like when you're working for us, you don't like, you don't get our Instagram personalities. Like we're the bosses. And we now have learned the hard way that like people come in and they're like, oh, this isn't the job that I was expecting because we sat there and we were just pitching ourselves to them the whole time. Like, hey, how great it is.

Don25:41
We launched a PowerPoint of why you should work for Stuff.

Matilda25:44
So it's got to be like even playing field, and that's so important. Like, it needs to be both sides making sure that it honestly is a right fit for the team, because like one bad, bad egg can really ruin the whole, the whole business, the whole thing.

Don25:58
But I think it's the, um, it's getting people that are aligned on the journey as well. So our core team, our leadership team, have been with us for 4 or 5 years. Yeah, since the beginning, you know, they, they came in, you know, 2, 3 years after really kicked off, you know, in that 2019 to '21 And you know, our best guys start on customer service, start on pick packing, and they just, they just, um, and that's why I get so excited with young people that are looking for ambition in careers. It's like, just start at the bottom. You know, work, work your way up over 20, 30 years type of thing. Um, so, so to answer the question, I think you develop your core team. I think we've done the other thing as well, where you go into the market and you get, you know, pay a recruiter a handsome fee and bring in the executives to come help, but like the worlds collide.

Boa host26:42
I've had exactly the same experience too. Every one of our leadership team was from within. We tried recruiting external a few times for like leadership roles, and every time it failed. So I had the exact same experience. Now, having a great team— uh, oh sorry, and how long did it take you to find that team, just for people to put in perspective?

Don27:00
Like, I think that's a 4 or 5 years, because I think the, um— and this is the thing that, it's, it's a bit of self-development, self-journey because, um, you know, you, you, you look online and you read all the PDFs and all the books and they say, you know, bring in the executives, bring in a CMO, bring a CFO, bring in a chief anything to help build the business. But like, bro, we're not building SpaceX. You know, it's like, like, I don't need you long. Be realistic with what your, what your needs, what your needs are for the team. And I think like most, uh, founders want to take a step back way before they can. We sort of learned that as well. It's like we thought we'll bring in external support and grow and it's like, well, maybe we can retire and go on holidays and stuff. But you quietly realise that's not how life works.

Boa host27:45
Yeah, definitely.

Don27:47
So I think my thought that I always like to share is like, play the cards you've been dealt and do intuitively what you think is best. And building a team for a small, because we're still a small business, I think it's it's based off intuition and feel. Because I always say to young guys, I'm like, I can teach you to do any part of this job except for like coding. But, um, you people can learn.

Matilda28:10
You also know as well. Yeah. I feel like once you've interviewed someone, when you meet with someone, like if you, oh, I don't know, like then they're not the right person.

Boa host28:17
Yeah.

Matilda28:17
Like, you know, immediately. And anytime we've like second-guessed ourselves and just hired them, it's been a disaster.

Don28:23
Sorry, I know you want to move on, but I like one, one rule we have now is like, if, if you have to negotiate with yourself to hire someone, it's an absolute no.

Boa host28:31
Love that rule. I also apply that. Um, now, sorry, having a great team is obviously important, but if you have a bad culture, then it's all for waste. Um, can you share what, uh, what's something that has had a negative impact on your team's culture?

Don28:50
I think it's what Till said, like trying to be nice, trying to—

Boa host28:53
too nice.

Don28:53
Yeah, what I mean by that is, um, I think like, uh, you know, we all, um, I was at one of the awards that you guys gave away, I think I was like, for workplace culture. I was like, it really threw me because I was really trying to understand like, what are we chasing in workplace culture? Because we always think we want to go to a place that looks amazing to work hard and whatnot. Um, and but I'm like, what do people really want that like excites them about work? So bosses tend to, or owners tend to sit back and be like, I want to create this great space where it's, you know, coffee's at 12 PM and let's go down to the cafe at, you know, 3 PM. Like Um, but when we, when we created this fun environment, like, we, we lacked on like leadership and drive. So it's not like try to create like a fun environment but sort of threw people into a bit of chaos and have like strict, um, strategy, goals, drive, and excitement. So I think, I think making— how do I say, um, I think when things— when people lack direction in their career, I think that creates a toxic environment for workers.

Boa host29:54
And so basically what you're saying is that perks and a nice office and all that isn't what makes a successful team. What people really want is to be able to see their future.

Audience member30:04
Yeah.

Boa host30:05
With the company.

Matilda30:06
Yeah.

Boa host30:06
Like to see that there's a path, not just for me, not just the company, but for you.

Matilda30:11
Yeah. And also just like to trust and have a relationship with like Don and I too, because do you remember when we sat down and like we were going through some things internally and we literally had like 2 days straight of just of just bringing people in and just asking them like, how are you? Like, what's going on? Like, how do you feel about this situation? Like, and we sat with every single one of our staff, and I feel like that was— I feel like that was transformative too, because they saw us as humans too. Because sometimes I think if you're too like directional and too bossy, like, you lose that human touch. Um, and actually sitting down with our staff, I feel like that really changed a lot.

Boa host30:46
They definitely see that you cared about their future.

Matilda30:49
You don't have to be so hard and bossy all the time.

Don30:51
You're Taking the team out to Mimi's for a boozy Friday lunch, like, that's always a winner.

Matilda30:56
Yeah, that sounds great. Could we do that?

Boa host30:59
Um, and it just finally, um, your brand is just, I think, a really key staple to your success. Like, you have built this big brand and everyone aspires to build a big brand. If there was one, the most important thing you guys did to actually build that brand— I know there's many factors that go into building a successful brand, but What's the most important lesson in building a successful brand that any other entrepreneur could, could implement?

Matilda31:28
That can I go? That it's okay to pivot and change. Am I going to steal what you said? It's okay to pivot and change your mind like that. You don't have to just because you've said like, I'm so big on the fact that we shouldn't have so much pressure on ourselves to like make a mistake, to never make mistakes, to always get it right all the time. If we've said something, you have to stick to it and you can't change your mind no matter no matter how fast you're going, no matter who's watching. And like we said, people don't really care that much about you. And if you do need to pivot, pivot. Don't worry about what everybody else thinks. Don't worry about, you know, any embarrassment it might cause or anything like that. Just like have enough like self-trust and courage to change direction because we— you shouldn't like— why do we put all this pressure on ourselves to never make a mistake? Why do we put all this pressure on ourselves to always get it right? This is everyone's first time as a human on this planet. Like we're all just simply doing our best. None of us really know what we're doing. We're just just giving it a go. So taking the pressure off and like realising that you can change your mind, you can pivot, it's okay, it's fine. We're all human, just doing our best. Completely.

Boa host32:29
And if it's not working, it's okay. Yeah, pivot, totally fine.

Don32:33
Yeah, I would just add, I think being exceptionally clear who you are as leaders, as people, and you know, um, I mean, everyone can just consider like how much you've grown as a person in 10 years. So when we, when we, you know, when we first started this thing to where we are now, like we've developed and grown as people. So, you know, change and growth is inevitable. So from a brand's perspective, Stacks is not the same brand it was in 2015. We need to evolve and we need to be clear on our morals and our values and our mission statements and like what we're trying to achieve. And then, you know, for— it's an interesting one because our reference is only what we know. So for us, like, you know, we just operate the brand based on intuition, on like what we feel like we can create for people. If we do anything other than that, I think I— that's where we sort of lose control.

Boa host33:20
Totally. Can we give them a round of applause, please? I don't know if anyone follows me on Instagram, but did you guys see that photo I posted of me 10 years ago, the day I started Cover Me Now? Man, that was a big change.

Matilda33:35
A lot happens in 10 years.

Boa host33:36
Freaked me out. I was like, I'd never looked at it before. So holy shit, what's going to happen to me in the next 10 years? I'm screwed. I want to go to Q&A. And guys, please, your questions, I mean, I would encourage you to ask them specifically about your own businesses as well. But ask any question because if it's something you're interested in, I promise you someone else here is as well. Who would like to go first?

Audience member34:01
Please. Hey, I'm Jen from Happy in Airbrush.

Matilda34:04
Hi.

Audience member34:04
So I can resonate with some of the stuff that you're talking about. The groups, Facebook groups, right? Thought about and started that, but a lot of people join our groups to see what our innovations are, what's coming up, and, you know, those sorts of things.

Matilda34:19
How have you handled—

Audience member34:20
like, it's great to get feedback from customers, but if you're sharing something new that you want to keep hush-hush, do you do it in that group, or do you have a separate, second quiet VIP that's, you know, that you've got monitoring, and they all know to keep it all down on the lowdown? Like, how does it— how do you create that and keep people involved but not exclusive?

Don34:41
Okay, I love, I love the question. Um, I, I think we overthink that. I think the, the attention span of leading people on too long on having like a separate group here and a separate group— just tell them what you want them to know. And the other thing I was, um, trying to teach our entire group was like, speak to our customers like they're our friends. So like, treat— like, if you have tech, we, we started a WhatsApp, uh, channel because like, that's where I want to play now because I'm getting bored on the Facebook group. So it's like, you know, speak to people like they're your like even, even in the tone of voice. Like if you, if you have something exciting you want to show them, um, and you're going to bring in a market, show them. Like, I mean, strategically play to the lead time. Like for example, I just got back from China and I, I, um, I, I took videos at the factory and I posted like, guys, this is what we're making. And people enjoyed it. People like feeling like what we said earlier, being part of the discussion.

Matilda35:30
Um, I saw a TikTok today actually, and it was saying that you shouldn't be too scared that people are going to copy your ideas because I mean, it's, if it's a good idea, people like like, it's annoying when people copy your ideas, but it's also flattering, right? Because it's like, they should copy, it's a great idea. I would copy it too. Like, so yeah, it makes sense. But, um, if you have a community and you have people that are interested in your idea, they do become loyal to your idea. So they're going to wait for it. You know what I mean? Like, they're not necessarily going to take your customer because they've seen, like, they already know that you're working on it. So they're going to wait for that because they're part of the journey.

Don35:59
Yeah. So we were just speaking about this, right? I'll give you a short answer, but Sorry, but I forgot the question. So, so what's coming? What's coming next in the market space is live shopping. Like, like America's killing it. China is absolutely killing it on their version of TikTok for live shopping. We're not doing it yet. So I said, so like we've got to get comfortable getting on Thing on live shopping. Till's like, but what if only 5 people show up? I'm like, my mindset always, it's those 5 people we want to take care of.

Audience member36:26
Are you guys actually selling in China?

Boa host36:28
No.

Don36:29
You know, because that— it's such a crazy market to understand. Not yet, though.

Boa host36:33
Thank you.

Audience member36:34
Thank you.

Boa host36:35
Please.

Audience member36:35
I loved your story. Thanks so much for sharing. And I think particularly the piece around the founder journey. Back many, many years ago, one of the things that we were working on when I was at Amazon was creating unique spaces for founders to tell their storey because innovative products that generate pie are all about telling the person behind the story, here is what we're doing and why, and giving them space, giving them lots of like space on many, many territories across 220 countries is what generates sales. I'm really particularly curious about the international expansion piece of what you guys do, because even if you're, you know, have a physical presence in many countries, what has been your thought process around where you want to target, why you want to target that, how you do that? From a curation speed, just full process around where you go or why? I'd love to hear.

Don37:32
Okay, great question. So, so we built Second Left for the US. So every Australian brand, everyone's dream is to blow up into the US because, you know, you just look at the population, you just watch these unbelievable Aussie brands and e-commerce kill it there. Um, I think time and community is the same thing. So we, we actually, just strategic pieces, uh, registered our TikToks in the US, um, so that we actually tap into that algorithm directly. So I think For us, you know, uh, our thesis is build it around people and culture and community. So we just went there, like build community, build UGC, build, um, little social demographic groups and slowly grow. Like for us, global growth is, you know, 5 and 10 year plan because that's our reference. Like we tried the other thing where it's like, hey, everyone says like blow your cash into this platform, blah, blah, blah. The cash doesn't come back. So, so we're just deploying what we, what we know and starting with smaller communities right now. We, we're quite excited about building, um, Stacks in the UK. That's like our entire focus is UK now, but now we're studying, it's like, it's a whole different culture. The way they receive information is different. It's the same with the US. Like what the hell? Like it's people receive. So then we have to look at collections and, um, so what do we do when we don't know? We do what we know, uh, build it around people. Yeah.

Audience member38:42
Does that mean go hang around some gyms and try and sell some leggings?

Boa host38:45
I'm down.

Matilda38:46
Yeah. If we were like, if we were in the UK, that's what we would be doing.

Don38:49
We did that. We, um, last year, February, we went out to, um, we did a pop-up at a PR event in the US.

Matilda38:56
Yeah, yeah, true.

Boa host38:58
You know who did that? Raquel Borris.

Don39:00
Yeah. In London.

Boa host39:01
She did a great job. She literally stood outside the pharmacies and giving away free product and telling people to give it to them and say, can you walk in and ask if there's Who Is Elijah? And she, she then got stalked by them as well.

Matilda39:13
That's how she got into Supermarket.

Boa host39:14
That's how she got into one of the main boots. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matilda39:18
Clever, clever girl, that one.

Boa host39:19
She's, she's really clever.

Don39:21
Please.

Matilda39:23
Hey, guys.

Boa host39:24
I know you're next.

Audience member39:25
I love Limoncello's campaign. I thought that was so fun.

Matilda39:27
You looked great in the collection.

Audience member39:30
I loved it. I felt like it was like, I don't know, paid a tribute to summer, but it took you kind of get a bit of nostalgia in a way. So the question for me is how, how do you think of these great campaigns? Because, you know, activewear is activewear, right? And it's very saturated. But how do you meet make it stand out. And when you gain that inspiration for your campaigns and marketing, what is it?

Matilda39:55
I told you, I told you.

Don39:57
Yeah, I think that's the, that's the art. So I think like, um, when people ask me like, what, like, Don, what do you do? I'm like, I'm a hope— I'm a terrible CEO. I'm like, you know, I'm joking about like all my failures in business and how hard, you know, running business is. But where I, where I lose time and excitement is in creative, like in design and ideas. And that's like the marketing piece. So like, that's the, that's the concept, you know. You look at all the best fashion brands in the world that we study, we look at campaigns that they run, shoots that they shoot. And that's— I try and connect the same idea with our campaigns. Like, and then we look back at some of the horrible ones we've done in the past, but they killed it at the time.

Matilda40:34
They were great.

Don40:34
And that's what we reflect on. So, you know, those disruptive stories, they don't have to make sense. It gets people's attention. Like, we did a campaign, maybe I think in 2020, '22, and I built like this cave to sell women's seamless. And like, we shot all the girls because the idea was like, like, uh, um, rubies and crystals, like all the colours are built against different crystals. Um, what a crazy idea, but people enjoyed the story, the disruptive story. So I think, um, we're just trying to be creative.

Audience member41:01
Yeah, but I like that. I felt that in Elementor, it kind of like, you told a storey and you thought for a second you forgot that exactly.

Matilda41:07
Yeah, well, you just like, there's only so many like times you can do the same thing with activewear. Like it's a saturated market, so you have to do something to stand out.

Boa host41:14
But I think something you said that was important was that you don't also need to just come up with a completely new idea. You can look at what some of the best companies and brands and teams are doing around the world. And you can find ideas that you can then formulate as your own alternative. Yeah, it's inspiration. Did you have a question before?

Audience member41:33
I'm in business with my sister, so I know what it's like to have sort of a close partnership. My curiosity is how obviously you guys have an amazing synergy to build this together. Has there ever been a need to have an external— a lot of people have a business coach or a mentor or something like that. That? Has there ever been any kind of a need for that, or have you ever tried to and realised that it just comes back to the nucleus that's like YouTube?

Don41:59
Um, as your business partner, punch in the face. Um, yeah, good, good question.

Boa host42:04
I think—

Don42:06
what's my, what's my transparent answer? I— my reference is like figuring out as you go and making all the mistakes and like backing yourself. I think, um, someone asked me a very similar question about, you know, their business coach and their mentors, and I think to myself, I'm like, I think reaching out to wisdom and asking people for advice to help you with things you don't know is genius.

Boa host42:26
It's brilliant.

Don42:27
But I think like learning and failing along the way and like, you know, backing yourself when you're— when you've hit the ground and you— that's, that's my style. That, that's different to me, like consulting with a CFO or a, you know, a CEO specialist, or like, you know, these 60-year-old geriatric guys that can barely walk that have done this a thousand times and just getting those little pieces of that goal from them. Um, we back each other. I think that's it. That's, that's, that's what we're always going to do. I think, um, advisory boards, I think, is another great idea, but that's connecting with experts in the fields that they're good at, not necessarily, you know, a coach or mentor. I don't know if that answers the question.

Matilda43:06
I also think no one knows your business the way that you do as well, and no one knows the vision that you have for your business. At any time, like, we've had someone— I don't know if your question is like step in so that we can all come to a decision if like Don and I are bicker or something like that. But, or if it's someone like with the, to take over the business or to share another perspective. But I think anytime that Don and I haven't been like front facing or the ones driving it, it hasn't really worked. And when we jump back in the driver's seat, like Limoncello, for example, it's amazing. Do you know what I mean? So it's like we learn that way too. No one knows the business like you do.

Boa host43:38
I agree.

Don43:38
Is everyone here in business with securities?

Boa host43:40
Like, yeah.

Don43:41
Just so, so you'll resonate with this idea, like, uh, you'll walk into— because everyone here is young, so, you know, probably second or third businesses, first for most of us, um, you'll, you'll be faced with a situation, uh, or you'll be in a space where everyone wants to give you advice, or you'll have a problem and like you'll sit with people and they'll, they'll give you the advice. And when you're inexperienced, you'll think that you need to take the advice, and it really fucks with your brain because like like, this person's saying this, I feel like I'm failing at that, maybe I should do this— that, that anxiety that it creates. So, so through maturity and experiences, you learn and you study. Like, the most successful people in the world, they have advisors around them. And they'll— and just picture this, like, whenever you're going through that, that chaos, I always imagine myself, I'm in a room and everyone can throw their advice at me, and I'll sit back and I'll think to myself, right, and I process it. I'm like, That makes sense. Context of that makes sense. I understand. I appreciate that. What do I want to do and how does it apply to our mission of what we're doing? As opposed to trying to copy what someone else is trying to teach me to do, because I did that. And you realise you just, you get so far away from your dream and like your mission for your business. So to Till's point, like we all know our business better than anyone. So, uh, receive the piece of advice, just make sure that applies to what you're trying to do. I don't know if that answers the question, but it's just sort of put me on a thought.

Boa host44:59
Thank you.

Don45:00
Yeah, please. Congratulations, unbelievable, both of you. Well, I tell you one thing, I bet you've been blown away with the relationship that you two have on the stage. Ah, is quite— you think it and she says it and vice versa. Brilliant. Good of you guys. You should see us offstage. What about the interview? My question, you mentioned your management structure. You're in a very aggressive space at the moment. How do you keep them invested in your business? How do you keep them every night coming there, working harder, and not being poached by someone else?

Boa host45:37
What do you do? Good question.

Don45:40
Yeah, you want to punch the recruiters in the face. Like, it's a, it's, it's, it's care. Well, it's, it's tough. I think, um, to the point, like, with a lot of these guys that are in our, in our, um, most senior space, they've been with us since the beginning. And I've also, you know, we had one of my senior designers, uh, leave just recently because her ambition and her dream wants to do women's fashion, you know, like dresses, party dresses. She comes from that background. And in the early days, Till and I would think to ourselves like, man, when someone leaves, like you're an enemy, like it's hard and it's harsh. So, so the first rule that we always have in our minds is like, as a leader, our job is to create better people and our job is to create leaders. And if, if we've done the best we can in the space and someone wants to move on to another thing, like we wish them well because we trust ourselves to build that up in the next person. We're, we're lucky with our core group because like they're so entrenched in the business. But Till and I have also realised when we took a step back to work on other things like the other brands, you know, these guys started losing motivation. So, so in that tough space that you might be speaking of, um, like our business is still small and we feel like you have to work so hard and be so engaged and lead and inspire the guys around you to keep them motivated. For them, giving them anything outside the equity and stuff like that? Equity, different ideas, different, I don't know, stock options, share options, comments there, I don't know, to you guys. No, good question. No, I think, um, I think like I said, we're a small, small young business, so the guys with us are still young. So, you know, the average age in our group is about 25, 24, 25. So, uh, ask me that question in the next 5 years when they start getting really, um, engaged in the concept. Good question.

Boa host47:20
I do like what you said though. If people can see, um, they're growing they've got a good relationship with you, they're growing personally, they can see a future with the company. Why would they leave? Yeah. You know? Um, please. I'll come to you next.

Matilda47:37
To tell their storey through photography and video. From your journey from the beginning to now, uh, what advice do you give to small businesses that trying to start a brand? Starting from the personal storey to help them to resonate to the ideal client and be able to grow. Yeah. How do you— what's the question?

Boa host48:03
So how do you—

Matilda48:06
I believe everything starts with your story.

Audience member48:09
Yeah.

Matilda48:09
How you went to the gyms, how to put the— and that is beautiful. And I, I like— this is what I love about your brand and what you just did in in the commercial is amazing. Sometimes you have an idea as a small brand, you have an idea, but you don't know how to put that idea into a brand, into something that is gonna grow and be amazing.

Don48:30
I think the— I know, I understand what the question— I think the way I would answer it is what I'm studying currently with TikTok at the moment, and I'm watching these young founders do exactly what you're saying, and I'm like, I'm so embarrassed because I can't do what they're doing. And I'm watching, you know, there's a couple of these young girls and I'm like, wow, you guys are just amazing. They are so free to share their idea and place their vulnerability online. And by the way, a lot of it is acting. A lot of it is like telling people what they want them to know and being vulnerable. That's a strategy. That's an absolute play. But I think that there's two parts. One is being comfortable to put yourself online and TikTok is the medium for it right now. Back in 2012 was YouTube in long form. That's where people think that TikTok, it's not. Like I was doing YouTube back in the day. I deleted all my videos. It was embarrassing. But that's how I started. I started, you know, had my B-roll camera in the fridge, open the fridge. Hey guys, welcome to Stan. I was doing that and I'm watching, I'm watching the new generation, but they're doing it like they're getting from year 1 to year 2. That would have taken us like year 1 to year 6 kind of thing. So the direct answer to the question is I think one has to be vulnerable and confident to place your ideas on TikTok and go through the journey, but also not have an expectation to like win and kill it in the first year. You'll see you look at some of the biggest creators of the time. They've been doing this for like 2016 before their brands killed it.

Matilda49:53
So also, if like no one sees your TikTok, it's not embarrassing. It's like no one saw it. It doesn't matter. Like, it's just if it flops, yeah, like no one saw it.

Don50:02
Just tell the storey through visual. People, there's enough people to love it, I think.

Boa host50:07
Thank you.

Matilda50:07
Really important. I'm testing.

Don50:09
I think so.

Boa host50:10
Yeah. Please, wish everyone a nice sleep.

Audience member50:14
Love what you guys are doing. My question is, I'm really curious about early staff. I'm particularly interested in like early on, what was kind of the first most influential hire or role for you? When you start hiring, when you started outsourcing, what was it that made the biggest difference to you early on? Like where'd that kind of go?

Matilda50:37
Customer service.

Don50:39
Oh yeah. I mean, the more emotional ones, like when Till got on board, like I started the brand and then like it was a bit hopeless for the first couple years.

Matilda50:45
I was the third hire though. We had someone before me.

Don50:49
I mean, strategically, the idea is you hire for demand, like where, where the struggle is. You got to hire for in the early stage before you do strategic hires down the track. So our first issue was that one where we oversold by X amount of product and we didn't have— we were on Outlook. It wasn't like you can't take a ticket. Like we had like 800 emails overnight and we're just like, I was shocked.

Matilda51:09
It was like it was COVID, had nothing to do. So it's fine. But it was like 3 a.m. and I was like, Don's like dragging me to bed. He's like, we cannot have you doing this every night. Like, I'm crying. I'm so invested in every single customer service email. And then that's when we realised we need to hire someone that isn't as invested in the brand and can just do the customer service. I think as well, I think that's a really good first hire as well because customers like— I'm not allowed to log on to customer service because I would just give everything away for free for everyone just to make peace. Do you know what I mean? But whereas you need someone that's kind of— that is obviously loves the brand, but it's not like the brand is our whole life. I can't have one angry customer. I'm going to go to to the ends of the earth to fix it, whereas you can't have that kind of sensitivity with every email. I think customer service is a really important first hire.

Audience member51:53
It's so interesting. I feel like you often hear, you know, it's, it's marketing, it's brand, it's content. I feel like I haven't heard that many founders say that customer service was the first.

Don52:03
Yeah, but from our perspective, like, we do the brand and marketing, so like when we need to, we can jump in. Like if I need to shoot, we can shoot When we lost our container during COVID and we couldn't shoot, Till was the model and we put a sheet on a wall and like, you know, you try to make it work. Um, again, like the, the reference there from what we did is you hire for demand in the early stages, like where you're struggling, hire for that. And for us, it was, you know, keeping customers happy, I think.

Boa host52:30
Uh, final question.

Don52:32
Oh no, this is fun.

Boa host52:34
I know, but Kirsten starts doing this to me.

Matilda52:37
All right.

Audience member52:37
Yes, Do you guys invest in your personal brand? And if so, cause I've seen a lot of business now, people, founders are investing in their personal brand online. So do you guys do that? And if so, do you have any advice for business owners?

Matilda52:51
Uh, like founder-led content? Is that what you mean?

Don52:53
Or just your personal brand?

Audience member52:55
Your own personal brand, like your own TikTok or Instagram.

Matilda52:58
I, yeah, I definitely do. Um, you do too?

Don53:03
Tills a genius. So like, so founderly content, like, to the point, like, if I had to start TikTok now or brand now, I think I'd struggle. Yeah, that too.

Matilda53:12
You can't do on TikTok.

Don53:13
I must be honest, I find it hard to do the thing, like, hey guys, welcome to Stacks. Today I'm packing 7 orders. These are the 11 lawyer meetings I had to have today, and this is the bullshit I'm dealing with. Like, I find that part hard, the founderly content. Having said that though, like, Till's brilliant with the community. Like, she's a, like, we, you know, you speak about your personal brand, like people are obsessed with Till and what she presents because like because of what she said, like she'll listen to your DM or she'll listen to your comment. Like she's like giving her stuff away. I'm like, babe, you can't just kind of like ship stuff off on the Stacks account. They've got to pay their own shipping. Like, so I think, I think it's, it's vital because that's the connection, the human connection.

Matilda53:55
People want to see the person behind the brand. And then I think that's very important is to— they build a relationship and they build trust and they want to support you. So I think it's, yeah, your personal brand and not just being about the business, like showing your actual life. So your personal brand doesn't become just a sales channel. I think that's really important as well.

Don54:13
I'll share one little, one little thing.

Matilda54:14
Like you're going to get cut for time.

Don54:15
No, let's come on. Cursing gets ruined. It's still light outside. It's still business hours. One sec.

Matilda54:23
Sorry.

Don54:23
The, uh, uh, my, my thing is podcasts and, and these sorts of things. That's, that's where I lose time. And that's where, so that's my, that's my excitement and where I really enjoy it. And I'll share one thing, like, uh, knowing when to show up. Like, when, for example, if we get asked to do things or speak or whatever, um, we try and show up to everything because, uh, you sort of learn that you build relationships and community. Um, and then it's funny because last Thursday, um, I did a, uh, I was asked to do a talk at One Playground. Awesome gym, really good facility, like mind-blowing. I was like, I was really tired that day. I was like, I'm still going to show up. Did We get great people. And, um, last Thursday we were doing a spin class and like the guys that were supposed to rent the spin bikes to us dropped us last minute, like, you know, 5 PM on a Thursday night.

Matilda55:13
Influencer classes Friday. I'll be quick, I promise. 4 influencer classes back to back on Friday morning. And then at 4 PM the night before, the gym that was— we had paid the bikes for just told us we couldn't— they couldn't deliver the bikes.

Don55:25
I just dropped us. I was like, right. Anyway, so, you know, you sort of look back and it's like, man, who do I know? Who can support? Who can help you reach into networks? I know it's a bit different to the question you asked, but what I wanted to stress was, is like showing up and being available to present yourself. You just never know when you're going to meet people that are going to help you along the journey and you can actually ask for the favor.

Matilda55:45
Even I asked for a nan, a nonna for the— I just went out to my Instagram following and she showed up. Beautiful D showed up and brought her nan along and they were in the shoot.

Don55:54
I'm like, damn, like two favors, bro. Like, this is the second— I'm going to call all my cousins, man.

Boa host56:00
Well, speaking of gyms, my friend and club member over there, Lachlan Ralston, has probably the hottest gym right now in the country. It's called Locker Room.

Don56:08
The most—

Boa host56:10
everybody knows— the most exclusive premium gym for kind of like big business executives. You guys should definitely cheque it out. But we do actually have to finish. So can we give him a round of applause, please?